From Robert Collins
Friday, 3 August 2007

There has been an explosion in the number of tinny metallic alumunium chairs and tables out on the pavements.

Obviously there was previously some huge untapped demand for the facility to sip coffee and eat cakes outdoors in the pouring rain, but am I alone in thinking that all this shiny metal furniture is a bit of an eyesore? To me they jar on the eyes far more than any yellow cobbles or stone willies.

Posted by Joseph S
Friday, 3 August 2007

I believe its called "cafe culture." I think its quite modern and probably originated somewhere down south like Derby.

Posted by Paul D
Friday, 3 August 2007

Never mind the street furniture, what about the hundreds of staring eyes that follow you around the town? These cafes seem to be attracting hundreds of gawping idiots. They either stare blankly out of the windows or gurn over their cups at you from the pavement. It's like Blackpool out of season. And all you do at weekend is trip over ten bob tourists window licking their way down Bridge Gate. Hebden is becoming a hateful little place, almost empty of decent shops and chock full of obese morons who struggle to get three doors without ramming some more food in their mouths. No wonder people are leaving in droves - we've all just become something for these pavement pervs to stare at. And to anyone who sits outside one - wind your neck and stop gawping - it's rude.

Posted by Andy M
Monday, 6 August 2007

Good grief - what a rant!

I was wondering where the Jeremiahs had got to!

Metal seats outside in the sun occupied by people enjoying the cosmopoplitan benefits of pedestrianisation (which also benefits local traders) ............

I sometimes wonder if I live in the same plane of reality as others in this town.

So, let me get this straight. We're currently inundated by staring fat people and 'ten-bob tourists' (quaint phrase - last used in 1954?) who follow your every move..............

You were dressed weren't you? ;-)

Posted by Janice S
Monday, 6 August 2007

I suppose it is a bit of a shock to the system to see people being able to sit out in St George's Square, or stand and chat without being scattered by an inconsiderately-driven 4x4 racing through...

I do find myself humming "Follow the Yellow Brick Road" when I walk down the centre of Bridgegate, but I find the new surface a lot kinder on my dodgy knees and ankles than the traditional setts on the Packhorse Bridge. It will be interesting to hear from the traders affected by the pedestrianisation as to whether it has benefited them or not.

Posted by Brian Garner
Monday, 6 August 2007

I understand what the first complainant is saying. If you study the cafe-ensconced people-watchers, you do feel that they have come to look at the lesbians, ageing hippies and other radicals/non-conformists who are resident in the town. On the other hand, I heard from someone concerned with development of the town that he felt it had been spoilt by its recent prettification/gentrification.

I think I'd be quite concerned if I was a Market Street business (especially cafe) owner that the hordes who descend on the Square and Bridge Gate may not venture further in their direction than AJs. watch this space for further Square-centric development.

Posted by Nigel Bywater
Monday, 6 August 2007

Is this the Hebweb equivalent of the silly season?

Save the banalities for the local rag headline-writers - "Horror as tea-sipping punter catches passer-by's eye", "Local offended by metal fold up chairs" etc etc.

And fair play to you Joseph S for managing to use the words 'Derby' and 'culture' in the same paragraph.

Posted by Frances Minto
Tuesday, 7 August 2007

Mmmmm, well done the pedestrianisation in George Square, placing the chairs over all the flat surface which I stupidly thought were for wheelchair use. I wonder if they were designed to provide DDA access or if the council is making some nice extra rent off the cafes doing it? Think extra chairs are great, and the pedestrianisation but the surface both on Bridge gate and George Square are not easy for wheelchairs.

I love to sit a gape at the crowds, but the town is so busy now that it can be hard to get a place both for parking and sitting. I now go to Todmorden and Mytholmroyd as Hebden seems to be gaining on Knicker shops and Mill conversions and loosing on access.

Posted by Paul D
Tuesday, 7 August 2007

"Save the banalities?"

There's nothing banal about a vision for the town that equates consumption with culture and elevates public consumption to some sort of art form.

This faux Parisian tat is actually cluttering up a once thriving working town, but it’s symptomatic of a wider trend that’s both infantile and destructive. Infantile because it panders to people who can barely manage an hour without the need for an immediate intake of food or liquid, destructive because it actually rides over our culture with its fake streets, fake lamps, fake cobbles and bad art. Hebden Bridge is becoming somewhere where people who can afford to pay the inflated prices sit eating sugary snacks and gurn at those who cannot. It’s not banal it’s incredibly sad.

Posted by Robert Collins
Tuesday, 7 August 2007

After all the threads last year about the colour of the cobbles, shapes of the lamp posts, sundial in the square, etc. I was just surprised that the same people hadn't piped up with the same objections when all these shiny metal chairs appeared.

Posted by Janice S
Tuesday, 7 August 2007

Who would have thought that the culture of Hebden Bridge could be irretrievably damaged by 100 yards of reconstituted stone, new street furniture and some shiny chairs. Maybe it's the last straw after the emigration of Sir Bernard Ingham.

Posted by Nigel Bywater
Tuesday, 7 August 2007

Aah - I see what you mean now, Paul D. What we really need is an 'anti-chavs charter', whereby people are weighed before being allowed to sit outside in St George's Square. They can then be parked in chairs facing inwards i.e. towards the cafe fronts, whilst being forcefed mung beans.

Posted by Robert Collins
Tuesday, 7 August 2007

Blimey, I didn't mean to kick off a flame war! I thought the metal chairs looked a bit, well, out of character that's all ;)

On a serious note, I've found that the move towards more and more trendy street cafe places has led to less choice for me in my non-trendy weekly shopping.

For example, the deli on the square used to stock a selection of cooked meats and cheeses, but is now largely a sandwich shop. Tasty Bites (are they still calling themselves that?) Again - it's becoming more of a snack bar that sells the odd loaf of bread.

Thank God for Holts, Maskills and Oasis.

Posted by Paul D
Wednesday, 8 August 2007

But the prices in Holts and Maskills are very high, a little too high for those people whose only employment is to service the needs of an increasingly infantile visitor and local population. People who are wealthy enough, care enough and see them as a bulwark against this creeping ‘café culture’ use them, others quite simply can’t afford to. And I don't advocate an anti-chav charter. Most of the wet lipped gurners appear rich enough to pay silly money for crap food – but they do tend to be obese.

The cafe owners are just making a living, they pay a fee for the outdoor licence, but in return they appropriate public space that’s almost equal to their floor space, public space we’ve paid for and pay to maintain – so they’re getting a fat subsidy from me. They also have an unfair advantage over shops trading only their internal space as the licence fee is small. If the unnecessary consumption of coffee and sugary snacks becomes the only show in town, the only way to make a profit will be to sell food. Sure the café owners work hard and provide (low paid) jobs, but a town full of cafes will get wiped out when the next (service) recession hits.

I’m not saying we should banish cafes, but the ‘regeneration’ of a town based on tourism and unnecessary consumption is not only visually offensive, it’s economic madness. We’re already seeing a rise in part time and seasonal employment – some of those serving your frappe might actually want a full time secure job. And isn’t it funny how in our liberal hippy happy town how women get all the shit jobs? Sisters are certainly doing it for themselves, and shafting plenty of others on the way.

I’ve held out on criticising the whole scheme until work was completed, but I did contribute to the consultation. Other than the knife to be revealed, I think it’s all really fake and weak, but maybe it helps people who moved here to escape something else feel a bit more secure. One day soon, when three or four quid suddenly seems a bit steep for a drink and snack you don’t really need, it could all become poundland. It risks driving good businesses out of town, it’s exploitative at heart and all these people who think they’re so left bank do need to look a little harder at their actions and the consequences of them. To eat in public is part, but not the pinnacle of our existence, and unlike in Paris or Gerona, the people who do it here do tend to stare a lot – like they really want to be seen ‘doing it’. It’s all a bit creepy really. A harsh winter should see the buggers off.

Posted by Christine
Thursday, 9 August 2007

I need to be able to sit down somewhere and have a cig. Can't have one inside the cafe but it is nice to be able to sit outside and have a nice quiet cig with a drink.

Posted by Andy M
Thursday, 9 August 2007

I vote that we change the town's name whilst we're at it to Hebden Whinge, rename the square Jeremiah Place and the car park Place de Nimby.

Posted by Robert Collins
Thursday, 9 August 2007

I started this thread with what I thought was a light-hearted question about not liking the look of shiny metal chairs in a conservation area. In the context of an area of town where such details as the colour of stone cobbles have been picked over endlessly on these pages, I thought it was fair comment.

So I'm not sure about some of the name calling that's going on.

Several years ago I posted on here about how it would be a shame if the mainstream facilities of the town were neglected in favour of pandering to the trendy image of a small minority.

At the time, one of our local councillors (I forget who) was openly deriding some long-established local businesses as "eyesores" that had to be got rid of. Back then it looked like crystal shops and random new-age tat was the way forward. This year's "new rock 'n' roll" is coffee on the pavement.

So Andy, I am more than happy to be compared to the prophet Jeremiah.

"You will go to them; but for their part, they will not listen to you".

:-)

Posted by Paul D
Thursday, 9 August 2007

Why not indeed Andy - after all, we could live without any references to a medieval river crossing, our patron saint and irritating local place names. Who needs culture when you've got consumption? All those cakes to eat. But I guess anyone who objects to anything is a whinger nowadays. For me the town has becomes like one big outdoor aunt Betty's tea room, the pavements are full of people eating (and gurning at passers by), cafes are springing up everywhere (one on Valley Road next) and our local authority gives us a makeover that looks like it was designed by a failed landscape architect. Just sad sad sad, how we traded it all for coffee and tat.

Posted by Adam B
Friday, 10 August 2007

Now maybe I just happened to be in town on the wrong day of the week but I wandered around the square yesterday and walked down Bridgegate before heading up Market Street.

Not one fat person on any of the crowded chairs / tables and no-one as much as glanced at me (unless they waited until I turned my back). They also seemed to be nearly exclusively local folk rather than tourists.

Maybe I'm just not good looking enough to watch :'(

Adam ;-)

Posted by Andy M
Friday, 10 August 2007

Paul - we can have both 'trendy' cafes (do we want untrendy cafes?) and our links to the past (all summarised on our lovely gnomons ;-))

What did we have before the 'coffee and tat'? Tarmac and tat? Parked cars and whatever the opposite of tat was - if we ever had it? I think Bridge street and the square look much better, are a pleasanter place to walk (and sit and stare) I honestly haven't noticed people gurning - and if they do isn't that a traditional pass-time roundabouts?

Posted by Susan Press
Friday, 10 August 2007

Lot of snobbery and sizeism on this thread. The pedestrianisation has done wonders for the town IMHO and if people want to sit outside and have coffee and cakes well good luck to them. Presumably Paul D is a very thin vegan. And a NIMBY one too.

Posted by Robert Collins
Friday, 10 August 2007

Andy, just a small counter-example to one of your points. The Cabin cafe is completely untrendy and is definitely the best in town. So yes - untrendy has its place and is just as much an asset to the town as the newest fad-dining experiences round the corner.

Posted by Paul D
Saturday, 11 August 2007

The cabin is a good example of a local cafe, most others are OK as far as it goes, but why so many?

And as for the pedestrianisation doing wonders for the town - on what evidence? Most traders I've talked with think it's a disaster. Calderdale must really hate us. This is the authority that can't be bothered to fund, fill and supervise the paddling pool, so puts a pile of cat shit attracting sand there and calls it 'innovative'. An authoirty that spent heaven nows how much sending cars the wrong way round Halifax and repeats the feat here - just so people can fill their face in summer months. Locals have to walk in the flipping road to avoid being sprayed in fat or danish pastry. Calderdale is on the run here, it's selling what it can and shutting up shop. Wasting this much money should be it's final act in Hebden Bridge. Bring back WRCC - or people who know how long it takes to earn a tenner.

Posted by Gwen G
Saturday, 11 August 2007

Perhaps Paul D should go and have a look at the sandpit he so disparages.

Yesterday morning there were 33 toddlers happily playing in it while adults sat on the edge sociably chatting. Many would say it is the best thing that has happened in the park for a long time.

And it is raked every morning, ensuring it is cat and dog shit free.

Posted by Joseph S
Sunday, 12 August 2007

Sorry Paul but I think you are in a vocal minority. Your "gawping fat chavs" comments are rude, inaccurate but mildly amusing. The catshitsandpit comment is just inaccurate.

Yes the towns not perfect. Yes parts of it could have been done better but for the most part, the pedestrianisation has added to the town and made it a nicer place to live.

So well done to the councillors, officers, traders and businesspeople that have made it happen, and thanks for making our little town an even lovelier place to live.

Posted by Paul D
Sunday, 12 August 2007

I think I can possibly live with being in a minority, but do agree that I should be less rude.

I also think that creating a future for Hebden Bridge has required (in part) the past to be erased. So third rate services strike those with no experience of anything else as adequate. When I learnt to swim in the 'deep end' of the paddling pool, changed in the now demolished playground shelter, drank from the public water fountains and had a wee in the playground toilets not the bushes, the putting green was staffed, there was much less litter and certainly no discarded cans, bottles from alcohol drunk on the field. Now (as another of those dads on toddler duty) I see filth, drug use, alcohol cosumption, vandalism and a pile of cat shit attracting sand that gets raked - and this is progress and 'innovation'? Sorry, but it's not. It's just third rate crap from an authority that's almost given up bothering.

Ditto the rash of cafes. If you buy into the twee biscuit tin lid image of the town, see risk and creative messiness as threatening, maybe confuse having with being, then all this is progress. Ignore the removal of core services, the undercurrent of poverty and addiction, then fine. I'm not bought off by all this tinsel and tat. Exactly who's staffing this theme park? Who paid for it? Who asked for it? Has the majority been pleased or has it beeen conned? A lovely place to live if you like what? Coffee? Car free streets? Fake lamps? Is this what passes for 'culture' in Hebden Bridge? So the majoirty likes the cafes like they like the sand - it's all sort of fine when you know or expect no different. Careless consumers deserve what they get.

Posted by Joseph S
Monday, 13 August 2007

Is it a glass half full issue Paul?

Where you see an economy based on endless overpriced cafe's enticing in fat chavs, I see Elements, The Old Treehouse, Mooch & Rubyshoesday. Lovely new vibrant and unique (ish) businesses started by youngish people in the town.

Where you see a pull out of council resources, I see huge investment in the pedestrianisation, making the town safer for our children and nicer to walk through. I see a genuine attempt at community manifesting itself in groups that meet to clear land of rubbish, protect and support the park, assess future development and stop using plastic bags.

And where you see the catshitsandpit I recognise that actually, the public liability insurance for a childrens paddling pool is so prohibitive that re-inventing it as a giant sandpit is a sensible use of a resource in a changing world.

What do you think?

Posted by Andy M
Monday, 13 August 2007

Are the trendy cafes occupied by fat chavs then? That doesn't add up!

Which traders think pedestrianisation is a disaster? I too hve heard this from the bakers on the corner. The strange thing was though thata they were saying this whilst it was obvious from the shelves that they'd sold the usual amount of goods by what was 3:30 on a weekday afternoon - people will believe what they want to. Traders always complain about this type of work and if the Council 'hated' the town they wouldn't be spending money on us!

And the Cabin cafe? I haven't been in since having a terrible bacon sarmie years ago - it may well have improved.

Posted by Paul D
Monday, 13 August 2007

Not sure my view on these shops is that important. Mooch - was good but now a bit formulaic. Treehouse - too much stock sourced in France and marked well up, as if nobody ever goes there. Rubyshoes - compelling for females with feet so bad news for men in general. Elements, dunno don't go. Agree Market Street is better though. Maybe it's because the punters can park, shop without being gawped at, or not risk slipping on a bit of wet rocket some doorway guzzler has discarded. But when Aurora closed most of the street's ethical dimension went with it.

All this community action is noble, but sadly grounded on a lack of civic investment in the town. Example: memorial gardens Tod park. Impeccable, manicured, stunning setting, because the town demands it. Sure there are issues in Tod, but the people there have not lost their collective memory and so don't have to form clubs with other local tabulae rasae to collect litter.

The 'innovative' paddling pit is no more a sensible use of resources than spending (a million pounds yet?) on redirecting traffic. Insurance is just another lame excuse from our lame authority. Also, children are not more safe at all, they're much more likley to get run over now the crossing island's has gone outside Holts. Like every child over 8 waits for the green man? And the 'innovative' traffic lights that accompany this half baked innovative traffic management scheme all prioritise the movement of cars even more now! To the extent that you can wait five minutes to cross to a Primary school and the sequence on Albert Street ignores all requests to cross and will run an extra traffic sequence.

We've been had all ends up. That's what I think. The car is still king, the roads are less safe, the town's a tea room, the bill is unknown and I'm looking forward to asbestos find that will scupper the library and mean it has to be sold off like every other civic asset.

Posted by Kevin S
Monday, 13 August 2007

Whilst we have the square with its new pedestrian area I think we should not forget about market street where some great shops / eateries are situated.

A few weeks ago I heard one of the cafe bars has had to remove its tables from outside their premises even though they have been there for around 2 years. They are apparently now an obstruction. I would imagine this is a great loss to the street as it made it look an inviting street to wander down.

I feel sorry for the shops at the bottom as half way down. You pass 3 empty dilapidated shops which are quite an eyesore. I am sure the shopkeepers down there will agree as they are obviously trying there best by adding the hanging baskets to their premises (which I believe they have had to pay for).

I think we need to promote the whole town and not just the square / pedestrian area.

Posted by Zilla Brown
Tuesday, 14 August 2007

I feel sorry for the ammount of accumulating criticism of Paul D though I am sure there are others who wholeheartedly agree with him.

For what it's worth I think to be able to walk down the street without dodging cars is great. However when you get to the square it is increasingly difficult to wend one's way through as the cafe barriers force you over towards the circular seats. If these are occupied it would be easy to trip up - and I too flinch slightly walking past all those (sunglassed or not) blank stares lining the streets. It does make you feel like a source of entertaintment.

It seems that as a consequence of all this there are very few shops left in town to service the local population's everyday needs now. We dont need more fancy underwear or shoe retailers - the food shops charge high prices for so-so goods, there's no cobbler any more, the sewing shop has closed and the Coop could be a lot better. Thank god we've still got one or two like Bonsalls, Lamberts and the Bookcase that provide a real and useful service!

Posted by Paul D
Wednesday, 15 August 2007

The shops you mention are possibly all at risk. Bonsalls hasn't painted its sign in 20 years, Lamberts isn't open on a Sunday and the Bookcase doesn't have a little cabinet full of sticky treats near the counter. They're doomed.

But when cafe culture turns a market town into a ghost town, then I'm sure Calderdale will pay somebody lots of our money to tell us what we need next.

And until then, for all those pseudo greens who just lurve the scheme, some questions. How much carbon is burnt every day purifying and pumping the water to your house, then taking it, the rainwater and your waste away for treatment? If like me the answer is none, because you're a spring and septic family, then cool, you probably have fewer spots and rashes too. If not, then just lay off people who might actually need to use a car to get into town and (shock horror) some might even need to use a 4x4. If that one bores you, or you run out of interest at the litres per flush stage, then ask yourself which is greener, not buying things you don't really need, or buying them, but taking them home in a jute bag?

Posted by Andy M
Wednesday, 15 August 2007

Wandered though the square this lunchtime and failed to attract any 'blank' stares or guerning chavs...I was most dissapointed!

Out of interest Zilla how should the Co-Op be improved?

Posted by Ian M
Thursday, 16 August 2007

Oh come on Andy, the answer is obvious! In the space where the Co-op stands you could fit several second-hand bookshops or shops that open for a few months and then close down. Or what about a Christmas shop? Ooh I forgot the favourite Hebden shop - the charity shop there must be one missing at least.

Calderdale Council could build a circular path around the shops so visitors could walk around aimlessly in circles looking in windows for something interesting before returning to their cars having bought nothing because there is nothing to buy!

As they leave they could all mutter "what a crap day - I'm just glad I managed to get a cup of tea and a slice of cake. Shame I couldn't sit outside though!"

From Janice S
Thursday, 16 August 2007

OK Paul, apologies to the many considerate 4x4 owners. Some of my friends have 4x4s because they need them - I mentioned 'inconsiderately driven 4x4s' because I was nearly hit by one speeding through St George's Square a few years ago.

How can we make Hebden a thriving working town again though? The big mills closed years ago - unless someone fancies setting up one to make jute bags ;). There are a few small industrial units, some offices, some farms and lots of people like me who work from home slaving over a hot keyboard. And sometimes I go out for a coffee just so I get a break and can talk to people. I've lived in 'tourist towns' and I've lived in 'working towns' and, yes, Hebden on summer weekends is mainly a tourist town, although we seem to be getting more walkers which is nice.

Posted by Robert Collins
Friday, 17 August 2007

Janice, there is a lot more industry in the town than just a few small units. It's just that you're not coming into contact with them in your own daily life.

Being an engineer, It saddens me when people state it as a fact that, "industry's dead so it doesn't matter."

The more often people make that casual assumption, the more likely it is to come true. I think the perception that coffee on the pavement is somehow vital to the future of Hebden Bridge is a symptom of this.

Posted by Andy M
Friday, 17 August 2007

Are walkers intrinsically a better thing than tourists and day trippers? Unless they go to the outdoors shops they probably spend less money than fat chavs!

Posted by Janice S
Friday, 17 August 2007

Robert, I was being too simplistic, I agree. I know there are some large manufacturing businesses in Hebden, e.g. Calrec, and more in Mytholmroyd. I wish there were more though, and more choice for people who wanted to work here and not have to commute - assuming they can afford to live here.

I don't really mind the tourists except when they force me off the pavement when I'm in Market Street - at least the walkers tend not to dawdle! I do like the fact that the walkers have a purpose in coming here, other than wandering aimlessly through the town, but I'm also guilty of wandering aimlessly through towns when I go on holiday. Most of the time I'm pleased to live in a town that other people think is worth visiting, for whatever reason.

Posted by Joseph S
Friday, 17 August 2007

I agree. Its not really accurate to suggest that we are a town founded upon selling overpriced hot drinks and sticky buns to tourists. I suspect that the engineers, builders, writers, homeworkers, artists commuters, computer (types) butchers, bakers finelightmakers etc might disagree.

Posted by Graham Barker
Friday, 17 August 2007

I think Robert has hit on an important point: what is Hebden Bridge's economic purpose, and why are we all living here? It used to employ thousands in textiles, but manufacturing is now only a marginal contributor. We seem to be going through a sort of asset-stripping phase, where any commercial building risks being converted into housing. The logical end result of all this will be HB the dormitory town, with no significant local industry. This is not a healthy prospect.

I'm not averse to pavement cafés but suspect they're just a fad for a year or two, like the erstwhile rash of antique shops. After they go, what then? A great little town for charity and pound shops?

Like plenty of others I work from home, so in a sense I have a double stake in HB. I'd like to see planners stop promoting us as a tourist town, which I see as a dead end, and start putting more effort into reshaping HB as a place to work and create businesses. Calderdale pays lip-service to enterprise, largely I think because it's something very few council officers have any experience of. It might involve putting a stop to any more tweeness, but if HB is to have a self-sustaining economic future and have pride in itself, that's the way to go rather than tourism.

Posted by Zilla Brown
Friday, 17 August 2007

As regards your question about how the co-op could be better Andy Mwe have had fresh bagged salads from them that were within the sell by date but starting to rot, on more than one occasion, and we have found that the quality and variety of their fresh fruit and veg is generally not good. I have often seen plants dying in their packaging because no-one waters them. It gives a general impression of take it or leave it and not really caring. They have managed so far because they lack any serious competition, not that I'm advocating a Tescos in Hebden.

I agree with Graham that we are more than a tourist attraction and need more support for our local enterprise.

Posted by Adam B
Friday, 17 August 2007

This debate seems to have turned towards a questioning of what Hebden Bridge is, was and what people want it to be. I think there is a certain inevitability about what Hebden Bridge has become and is becoming.

It will never be a important industrial town again as it cannot compete with places like Leeds, Manchester, Huddersfield, Bradford etc. Those days are gone, however it will always have some level of industry due to its' location and the available industrial space.

Its' commercial importance is also likely to be limited as many folk find it at least as convenient and economic to go to Halifax or Todmorden for many consumables (such as family shopping or clothes for example). It retains a commercial importance for smaller everyday things and those who are happy to do a smaller weekly shop in the town. It's also an option for those from smaller villages nearby.

Like so many other places it is replacing the economic void created by the loss of some of the above with tourism. Hebden is increasingly popular as a tourist destination and it will grow ever more so. There will always be folk who wish to walk in the area and/or enjoy some of the local history. This will provide an important income for the town.

Hebden has another important factor which will keep some commerce and industry here for the foreseeable future. Its' location; excellent rail and road links with very good public transport. This makes it a nice place to live if you have a young family which you wish to bring up in a more rural area and you work in Leeds, Manchester, Bradford, Blackburn, etc.

It is my belief that Hebden will continue to become less industrial and commercial (while still retaining some of those aspects) while becoming increasingly tourist-orientated with a significant population of commuters. The location of the town and the demand from the commuter population will guarantee some level of industry and commerce respectively. The tourism will guarantee a certain level of income for a long time.

Whether you like the above pattern or not is, I'm sorry to say, likely to be a moot point. It is likely to happen here just as it has in other places.

Posted by Janice S
Friday, 17 August 2007

I think you are right Adam.

Incidentally, I've heard that the Civic Trust is being re-formed this September - there is an application form on this site. Perhaps those with strong views on the development and future of Hebden should consider joining it.

Posted by Paul D
Saturday, 18 August 2007

Most of these 'post-industrial' visions for Hebden Bridge strike me as quite pessimistic. They invariably leave out agriculture and its contribution to the local economy and essentially boil down to a town for tourists and commuters, with other residents working in any remaining industry or serving the rest coffee. Calderdale obvioulsy share this pessimism, leaving people like me a role as an extra in their 18th century biscuit tin lid image of the town.

It's true that we've exported most of our industry to India and China, just so we can buy jeans for three quid. But this won't last. Nor will flying in crates of green beans from Kenya. The future for Hebden Bridge could be very interesting when the economy is redirected more towards meeting needs than wants. When it is then our population will be our greatest asset. I think the situation in Mytholmoryd is interesting. Start-ups, small, medium and larger companies have all chosen Mytholmoryd over Hebden Bridge. There are single individuals who have done more to encourage enterprise than Calderdale and the government put together. The post-industrial model of cummuters and tourists doesn't apply there - and there are still farmers making a living from cows and sheep. Somebody better tell them they're getting it all wrong ;o)

Posted by Adam B
Monday, 20 August 2007

You may be right to mention agriculture Paul, it did occur to me but it also seemed to me that the agricultural aspect was more a staple of those towns and villages on the tops rather than those in the valley which seem to have sprung from industry (and subsequent commerce) relatively recently.

I don't agree that the post-industrial view is necessarily pessimistic. It's true that I think it involves the town changing and that tourism and commuters are a big part of this but I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing - if it is managed well.

I think I would be more pessimistic if there was nothing but tourism but I believe that Hebden Bridge will always have more to offer than just that.

Posted by Gary Rathbone
Monday, 20 August 2007

The plans for the valley (including agriculture) has been developed by the Upper Calder Valley Renaissance project over the past few years.

The future role for each town is discussed and the outline plans to achieve the objectives are also available.

As this information has been available since 2003, I've often been surprised at public outcry when the individual projects reach fruition.

Posted by Robert Collins
Tuesday, 21 August 2007

Gary, I think there are a few reason for the public outcry you mention.

Firstly, people are quite busy getting on with their daily lives. They don't have the time or inclination to call into their local council offices to check the "master plans" of some public body or other nor to download some massive document off a website.

Speaking for myself, I don't identify strongly with anything in the UCVR's vision statement. I just want to get on with what I'm doing with minimum interference.

Secondly, the master plan itself (all 6.24meg of it) is laden with jargon, buzzwords and content which is frankly laughable. "A golden carpet of high quality public realm?" Give me strength! Look at the illustrations - Pedestrianise the A646? No wonder people don't believe a word of it!

Thirdly, the information that goes out for public "consultation" often bears no relation to what we eventually get lumbered with.

Look at the "backdoor" way that the pedestrianisation of Bridge Gate seemed to come about. We were promised an improved route for public transport in exchange for some extra inconvenience for car users. That's not what we've got is it?

Posted by Paul D
Sunday, 26 August 2007

Yes Gary I've seen it. I was struck by two things. Firslty, how many of the signatories were in the paid employment of the LA, RDA or consultants. Secondly, how much nonsense it is: the 'high quality public realm' must be hiding under the detritus of food and alcohol being consumed in public spaces. The only 'golden carpet' is the one padding the backsides of people who appear to use the public purse to mask their ineptitude. No offence, but this garbage cost us how much?

Posted by Joseph S
Monday, 27 August 2007

Have you noticed how quiet its all got on the forum this last week? I for one have got bored of debating the merits of our fantastic little town with the grumblers & groaners. Its boring and depressing and I've got better things to do with my time. I feel that if you told Paul D he'd won £5m on the lottery he'd say "Well, is it enough? and actually I don't think gambling is a good thing, and where's its long term economic merit".

We walked back from Old Town Cricket club late yesterday afternoon, with the sun shining over Heptonstall and out to Stoodley; down through Sandy Gate and into town with friends from Manchester who said what a wonderful place we live in.

We think its great, which is why we choose to live here. Why would you live here if you think its so rubbish? Wise up, be realistic, look at the town 30 years ago and tell me its not a vast improvement. If Mytholmroyd is so great, then fine move there- you'll get a load more house for your money, and won't be troubled by pesky mochasippers spoiling your day either.

From Tom Standfield
Monday, 27 August 2007

Joseph, I enjoy reading your contributions but sometimes I have to disagree. We do live in a wonderful place, and I know the spot you mean near Heptonstall, and the view is terrific. But this is exactly why the debates which take place here are so important. The town is changing. Should the changes be led by those who have the most money and seek only to increase their welath, or by the whole community who have lived and loved this place for many years? We may not wish (or be able) to return to the time Paul describes but Hebden Bridge has always had a certain edge and eccentricity to it which needs respecting and nurturing.

I also enjoy Paul's wry, entertaining contributions. But I wouldn't like to think that we were unable to welcome visitors to Hebden Bridge. I'd hate to become an insular community wanting to hold back the outside world. Though I do wonder about attracting people here just to visit shops and cafes. We have a wealth of wooded valleys and moorland. We should be telling visitors more about our stunning countryside and sharing that with them. Which is why the new Walkers Action group is so welcome.

If we ever stop complaining and challenging decisions, we have only ourselves to blame if we end up with a town we don't like. Lets hope that those who have influence follow these discussions, and that these debates can help play a part in moulding the Hebden Bridge of the 21st century.

From Jan G
Monday, 27 August 2007

Living some 25 miles from HB I feel reasonably qualified to voice my observations from the outside in. I have witnessed radical improvements over recent years, so much so that I feel not only compelled to visit on a regular basis, but to actually live there! Yes, my house is on the market and all being well I will soon become a proud resident as opposed to an unwanted tourist! I must confess however to feeling somewhat offended to imagine how some of you may have perceived me to date! I have enjoyed countless coffee’s during my visits in addition to endless purchases at a number of retail outlets. Not once did I ever stop to think that I was merely an unwanted outsider partaking in the seemingly criminal offence of enjoying a coffee.

Myself and my partner contemplated taking a retail outlet in the town some ten years ago. We viewed many dilapidated empty shops on offer including one displaying a notice in the window reading ‘closed down due to non existent sales’. Today however (as far as I can see) not a single shop is available to rent. Those that were semi-derelict have since been beautifully refurbished, look fantastic and the retailers are no doubt thankful for the support of so called tourists!

With regards to the alleged gawping of tourists, whilst I have never witnessed such behaviour, I could hazard a guess that they are probably in awe at the beauty of their surroundings.

Well done to each and everyone who has contributed towards transforming HB into a vibrant and unique town.

From Joseph S
Tuesday, 28 August 2007

Tom; I agree entirely with everything you've said. But I think there is a difference between openly debating and challenging our town's direction and community, and just knocking it continually.

You made your point by recognising what a great town we live in, opining its not all good, and making constructive suggestions for a different direction for the town.

That's vastly different from the ongoing forum vandalism that Paul D engages in. Search through his posts on this thread for a postive comment on our community or an idea for where we should go next and you'll struggle. If I were to thinking of visiting, moving to, or relocating my business to HB I would read this forum and be put off by its reference to me as a "fat chav" and may well rethink my visit, move or investment.

By all means criticise the community, the planning and the direction of the town. But do it in a balanced and fair way, and give credit to the people who work hard here to make it a better place. This is a public forum, visible to all sorts of people and the first point of call if you are going to visit the town. At the moment, I'd equate Paul D's comments with the mindless vandals who sallied through town this weekend smashing windows.

From Paul D
Tuesday, 28 August 2007

I'm thinking now that the 'S' after Joseph may be short for Stalin ;0)

The last bit: "I'd equate Paul D's comments with the mindless vandals who sallied through town this weekend smashing windows" is a bit sinister.

My comments are an example of free speech, breaking windows and attacking cars are criminal acts. I know this might be really hard for some people to take, but we should sort of welcome free speech and collectively wonder that we can do to address youth alientation that leads to criminality. Conflating critique and criminality is what despots worldwide do. It makes it easier to hang or gas those who say things you don't like. But hey, if global climate change and threats to our biodiversity can be addressed by promoting the consumption of things we don't really truly need then I'm with the cafes. I can ignore my sneaking fear that Hebden Bridge is turning into a Dickensian grotto, where local kids just get to stir the tourists' tea - if you promise not to send me to Guantanamo.

And yes I do have positive ideas. First off, work out what you need and what you want. Stop buying just one thing that you want, but don't really need every week. Then, try buying everything that you do need in Hebden Bridge, food, clothes - everything. Finally, anything you haven't used for two years, give away, you don't really need it. There's lots more after that, but if we really are going to survive as a local town, let alone as a species, we need to get away from an economy based on encouraging people to drive here and eat coffee and cakes. I wouldn't rely on Calderdale to help - it's a collective thing that politics hasn't quite got hold of yet. It sort of disrupts the politician's 'vision' thing. It requires a bit of action, a bit of sacrifice, a little bit more effort - and they're no good at any of those. Fake streetlamps - now they can handle those, but struggle to fix the real ones.

Posted by Graham Barker
Tuesday, 28 August 2007

I hope I'm not the only one to take exception to Joseph's attack on Paul. Paul is entitled to his opinion and it's always good - in fact necessary - to give all points of view an airing. If it's a considered contribution to an important debate, it's not negative. Personal attacks on the other hand are negative.

Posted by Robert Collins
Wednesday, 29 August 2007

Joseph, I too find your attack on Paul objectionable.

This line in particular, "I'd equate Paul D's comments with the mindless vandals who sallied through town this weekend smashing windows." is completely out of order. I'm not normally one to pick over other peoples' ahem, netiquette, but there is a world of difference between harmlessly posting a contrary opinion on a website and a spate of expensive and violent damage.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I cant seem to find the words, "fat chav" in Paul's posts. In fact, it looks more like you rather rudely put those words into his mouth, then took it upon yourself to deride him for saying something he never said.

Back on the (off) topic, my underlying problem with the UCVR behemoth and all it stands for is this. I think their basic premise is wrong.

Their master plan starts with the assumption that HB is a Market Town with "Tourism&Leisure" potential. You'll search long and hard for any reference to manufacturing in their document. In fact, the word was rather obviously thrown into a couple of paragraphs at the last minute.

Image and marketing take a higher priority to them.

IMHO, and this is the crux of the problem as I see it, I regard HB differently - as an Industrial Town, with a market and a bit of tourism & leisure potential.

We can't all sell one another crappuchinos. We can't ALL cut one another's hair or flog mobile phone contracts to one another. To earn the cash that we all collectively blow on these luxuries, somebody somewhere has to grab a couple of handfulls of raw materials and turn them into something valuable.

We don't need the massive employers of Manchester and Leeds. What we need is lots of smaller employers. The kind of employers who need the kind of workers, myself included, who can't wait to escape from the big cities. If HB can somehow grab more than it's fair share of these people, who do these clever, skilful, creative, hard-grafting things, then we'll win. It really is as simple as that.

If the underlying economy is sound then the market, coffee shops, yellow cobbles, Canal Interpretation Centres etc should form the icing on the cake. What we're getting from UCVR and our masters in local government is a thick slather of icing, with no cake underneath. That, in essence, is why I don't like the shiny metal tables ;-)

From Joseph S
Wednesday, 29 August 2007

I appear to have misjudged the mood of the forum and apologise unreservedly. I apologise too Paul for any offence caused, especially as the attack appeared too personal. Comparing some of Paul's comments on the town to the thoughtless vandalism of Saturday night was an unfair metaphor. I was trying think of the vandals unthinking casual physical destruction of the town in the same terms as Pauls written attacks on the town and I realise thats unfair and unhelpful.

I still object to visitors to the town being “gawping idiots,” “ten bob tourists” “obese morons” “pavement pervs” or “wet lipped gurners.” I think once is funny, but thats probably overdoing it a bit.

I disagree that “Hebden is becoming a hateful little place, almost empty of decent shops” or that “the prices in Holts and Maskills are very high. ”I disagree that “Mooch - was good but now a bit formulaic. Treehouse - too much stock sourced in France and marked well up”

And I disagree with his opinion that the towns makeover was “designed by a failed landscape architect” “padding the backsides of people who appear to use the public purse to mask their ineptitude.”

The "Gawping fat chavs" comment I can't find either! I appear to have cut & pasted it so wonder if it was once there. There was a post from Paul last night that called me Joseph Stalin which has gone this morning, and these things happen (Hebweb moderators do a great job so no offence intended). If I have misquoted anyone I apologise again, but I'm not sure why I would have done.

That'll probably do me on this thread I think. I think I was trying to stick up for the town, its businesses, the community etc etc as I love living here, and am prouder of living here than anywhere I have ever lived. But I got it wrong this time and (for the last time) I apologise.

From Janice S
Thursday, 30 August 2007

Joseph - I think your points are valid, and it's unfair for you to be targeted for criticising Paul. I haven't posted on this thread for a while because I thought some remarks were rude and intolerant - this isn't the 'culture' of Hebden Bridge as I know it.

Bearing in mind this website can be read by potential visitors and investors/manufacturers, I'd hate to think that they'd feel unwelcome (although possibly not if they plan to set up a factory making shiny chairs!)

From Elaine P
Thursday, 30 August 2007

Isn't it time we brought this thread to an end and started something more positve? Come on Paul D you've a lot to say, you're articulate, have plenty of ideas and you're spending huge amounts of time expressing your views in numerous posts on this forum. You don't have to lecture us, why not show us some positive leadership instead?

Perhaps Joseph S went a little too far with some of his comments but I've also been offended by some of your recent posts. Personally, I find the tone so negative, arrogant, confrontational and down right rude at times that I can't be bothered to read them any more. I feel bullied by the way you're lecturing me through this forum. Come on Paul, don't just criticise, help us to do better! Put that anger to good use.

There's still a lot to be done in Hebden Bridge but it's not all bad. You may not like all the cafes, bars and tourist shops selling 'tat' but just think what the town would be if you took it all away tomorrow. How many jobs would we loose for a start? I too want to see affordable housing, local jobs and be able to buy what I need locally but it won't happen overnight. You might just have to put up with some of the 'tat' before we can encorage more inward investment. Who's to say they can't co-exist?

I guess I too have just set myself up for attack like Joseph but I do agree with much of what you're saying. St George's Square is an eyesore but not because of a few tables and chairs. It's the faux victorian lamp posts, the bollards and the inappropriate benches that make it look like a dogs breakfast. I hardly dare mention the sundial that we're all awaiting with baited breath! If that's a symbol of the future direction of Hebden Bridge then you're right we are all lost. Let's channel our anger and make Hebden Bridge a better place. But please don't make me feel like a bad citizen just because I might sit in St George's Square and drink a cup of coffee while I'm out doing my shopping!

From Paul D
Thursday, 30 August 2007

I did post some really postive things along with a tongue in cheek reference to uncle Jo, but it all got lost in the ether. (There was a glitch which meant the post didn't show for a few hours - apologies, webmaster). I also agreed to be less rude and I think anger is pushing it a bit, but I can see how some young people have become so alienated and angry about their situation they've taken to attacking the town.

Maybe we could start by accepting that there is no single 'vision' of the town and all of us (along with CMBC) need to take this as the starting point. We all put up with what we don't like about the place and there are so many communities within the community that none of us can really speak for everyone.

I think then that people maybe need to stop and consider where we're heading a bit more. I see many creative businesses and enterprising individuals, some of them even have cafes. I also see low paid work, seasonal jobs, the retreat and of services, the neglect and sale of public assets, the over-promotion of consumption and the debris of over-consumption on our streets and in public places. I see old school friends addicted to heroin and methedone, washed up in their 30s. Street drinkers, the unemployed and the under employed. Pubs that act as creches and pubs that act as families to those outside the loop. Then there are local school students who are better educated than their parents, with opportunities their parents couldn't dream of, working hard, taking part in voluntary work and proving those who knock all our youth to be bigots.

Best start with what we've got. People are clearly our single greates asset. I'd like to see more support for those young people who want to make a life here, from housing the employment oportunities. If I was involved in local politics, I'd wonder why it took so long to get business rate reductions, why we fall outside rural development grants and outside SRB monies, why Calderdale focuses on HX1 and not HX7, why businesses aren't paid a grant to employ and offer work experience to local students or school leavers. Why Calder High appears to have more of a handle on the needs of the local economy than local governemnt, why Sweet and Maxwell chose Mytholmroyd over Hebden and why the Thornber family are offering better start up opportunities and more support to local businesses than the current government.

So I think we can work our way out of this. We have so many educated, enterprising, creative individuals, sat in attics, unable to take that next step into providing highly skilled, highly paid work (I've done it so I'm not having a go at loft dwellers). So, to start with, I'd give 5 grand of public money, mentoring and ongoing business support to anyone with a cracking idea. I'd kick the arses of those who are sat back watching whilst every other area get regeneration and other forms of monies and I'd especially support businesses that adress consumption, sustainability and regeneration. Enough from me now.

From Baz M
Saturday, 6 October 2007

How many of you people in this thread were actually born in this town? I find some of the comments laughable.

The town is much prettier, commercially active and downright better than it was 30 years ago.

Yes, we have to put up with the high-spending trustafarians (who now populate over half the town - lets talk about the effect on the locals of the house prices eh? no? ok then.....), but whinging about cafes and the standard of shops? Don't make me laugh.

Go and live in Tod or King Cross - then you'd have something to make you happy.

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