Traffic
Posted by John Thomas
Thursday, June 22, 2006
It's great to see the improved traffic flow that the council promised in action. I just love sitting at the top of Albert Street or Crown Street for ten minutes!!!!!
Posted by Andy Macintosh
Thursday, June 22, 2006
Personally I've found traffic in the morning (8-9) on the main road to be much reduced - a benefit for the majority of road users.
Posted by Tim
Friday, June 23, 2006
Sitting in your car for ten minutes at the top of Albert Street or Crown Street ..... just like we had to do on Bridgegate before the works!
Posted by Robert Collins
Friday, June 23, 2006
The bus stop Albert Street is a head-on crash waiting to happen. What genius gave us the opposite of a bus layby, a wide stand-out from the kerb which forces bus drivers to block the road for everyone else? Buses regularly park up there for an extended "timetable stop" causing maximum disruption to other road users.
Drivers behind have no way of knowing the bus isn't going to move off again for a long time. If they overtake, they cannot see if there is a safe space to pull into in front of it. If the bus driver sets off suddenly (yes they do!) the overtaker could be left stranded on the wrong side of the road.
So a long queue of traffic builds up while the bus driver sits idly reading his paper...
Main road traffic has been slightly reduced due to drivers using Old Gate as a rat run between the West side of town and Keighley Road (thereby avoiding four sets of traffic lights!)
Making a right turn from the top of Bridge Gate onto Commercial Street is now a lot more dangerous. The new raised, widened pavement + railings + traffic lights block the view of the road to the right, while there never was a very good view to the left. Again, a lot more traffic is making this right turn now since bridge gate is closed.
Posted by Rev Tony Buglass
Monday, June 26, 2006
I'm a bit bemused by the problems Robert thinks he's spotted.
I admit I haven't yet come up behind a bus in Albert Street, but my immediate impression is that visibility is no worse than any other bus stop. It is much better placed than the old stop and parking place which used to be opposite the foot of Birchcliffe Road - that really was an idiotic place to have a bus stop, and I really could not believe that there were parking places marked out there! I see that they have now been replaced by double yellow lines - not before time, as they forced drivers into the middle of the road immediately before a blind bend. Of course, when I was driving home last night, there was a car parked on the yellow lines...
As far as Bridgegate is concerned, I've taken a look myself, and the new bus stop doesn't obstruct the right-hand view at all. The curve of the road at the point actually sets the stop a bit further back than the driver's line of sight at the junction itself. The only way it could obstruct the vision is if the driver is taking an early look before he gets to the junction in order to come out without stopping at the giveway line.
My impression of the new traffic arrangements so far is that they are attempting to facilitate flow along the A646 while at the same time making the town centre safer for pedestrians. Most of the complaints I've read here or in the Bridge Times seem to be from motorists, about arrangements which are better for pedestrians. No doubt you'll tell me if I'm wrong about that...
Posted by Robert Collins
Monday, June 26, 2006
Tony, you've made a comment there which is unhelpful, to say the least.
You've artificially polarised people into two opposing camps: motorists vs pedestrians. In fact many many of the pedestrians you see wandering round the town centre have used motor transport to get there!
Posted by Adam B
Monday, June 26, 2006
My only comment on this is to answer Roberts' query about the raised bus stop which is designed to stand-out from the kerb.
The reason for this relatively new design for bus stops is disabled access. I believe they were designed specifically for use with the easy-access buses (which have wider 'access points' and are able to hydraulically lower the chassis) but don't quote me on that.
Posted by Rev Tony Buglass
Monday, June 26, 2006
Robert, I'm only reflecting what I read. So far, the protests seem to be from drivers, about things which they think are getting in the way of their driving. The only query from pedestrians was early in the scheme, about the removal of the centre reservation on New Road - and that was mainly from folk who now find it difficult to cross on red. Against that, I have heard approval about the removal of the narrow pavements in Bridge Gate, and about the provision of the new crossing below Birchcliffe Road.
As I say, that is an impression, no more. What is firm and empirical (because I conducted the experiment to verify it) is that the new Keighley Road bus stop does not obstruct the view at all. It is a vast improvement on the previous one, which together with the adjacent parking bay was in a highly dangerous position. I stand by my comments.
Posted by Robert Collins
Monday, June 26, 2006
Adam, I know what you mean about raised kerbs, but that's not what I'm talking about. The pavement has been extended out into the road about six feet beyond the original kerb line. A bus parked at the stop completely blocks the lane for everyone else.
I experienced the hazard this causes first-hand tonight. Turning left off the main road into Albert street, the junction is at an oblique angle so you don't get a clear view round the corner till you've practically completed the turn.
As I turned in, there was a bus parked at the stop, a long queue behind and white van man, overtaking the bus, heading straight for me! Someone with less local knowledge could quite easily take that corner just a little bit faster, falsely confident because the green light was in their favour...
Rev. Tony - what really is firm and empirical is that I made absolutely no mention of the bus stop on Keighley Rd!
Posted by Rev Tony Buglass
Tuesday, June 27, 2006
What you wrote, Robert, was "Making a right turn from the top of Bridge Gate onto Commercial Street is now a lot more dangerous. The new raised, widened pavement + railings + traffic lights block the view of the road to the right..."
Now, I interpret that street furniture as being all around the new bus stop, moved from its previous daft and dangerous place further down. It doesn't block the view to the right, as you suggest.
Posted by Adam B
Tuesday, June 27, 2006
The bus stop extension is all part of disability access and I think there are good reasons for it. Whether this change should have incorporated moving the bus stop to another location is a matter which I can't really comment on.
One point I do want to comment on is your view that the bus stop on Commercial Street obstructs the right-hand view of a driver attempting to pull out of Bridge Gate. I checked this on the way home this evening as I was surprised by your comments and I have to say that the view past the bus stop is OK (the real hazard is traffic coming round the bend to the left). From the junction there is a clear view past the bus stop (which is behind the junction) and up the road. There is only an obstruction if you are approximately 6 - 12 yards back from the junction (maybe 2 car lengths).
In fact I think the whole new setup on Commercial Street is an improvement. The bus stop (and ludicrous car parking spaces) were highly dangerous and had to be moved. A pedestrian crossing was desperately needed particularly with a school nearby. True it's not perfect but few things are and I think there were a lot of limitations on the design.
Posted by Robert Collins
Tuesday, June 27, 2006
Adam, I totally agree about the need for disabled access.
The new bus stops in Cragg Vale have the raised kerbs and are ramped for wheelchair access yet the ramps are only the width of the bus doors and only project about 18" into the road. The bus stop outside the co-op has the raised kerb, yet it doesn't stick out from the pavement at all.
What's been built in Albert Street is the opposite of a layby - a bulge out from the line of the pavement that is longer than a bus and extends 6 feet out into the road. It is massively over sized for the purpose of disabled access.
We are definitely talking cross purposes about Commercial Street! I never mentioned the bus stop there. Rev. Tony wrongly assumed this.
The raised pavement and railings are on the other side of the road and are part of the construction of the new traffic lights. They block the view because Commercial Street slopes away and curves off to the left immediately beyond this point, while Bridge Gate slopes upwards to the T-junction. It probably looked fine on a 2-dimensional CAD drawing.
In fact it probably looks fine from the front seat of an MPV, 4x4, Transit etc. Not so good if all you've got is an old fiesta.
Did you go there on foot to check it? Bear in mind that your line of sight as a pedestrian will be a foot or two higher up compared to a seated driver.
Posted by Anne
Tuesday, June 27, 2006
My view of the current traffic arrangements - based on a job that involves collecting and delivering around the centre and outlying areas - is that overall flow along the main roads is pretty much the same.
Walking around the town is easier, with more and better crossings (and will be even easier when the pedestrianisation is complete). Crown St. is a problem - partly because most people want to park for free as close to the shops as they can and traders need to park there too. And partly because drivers use it as a short cut from Keighley Rd. to New Rd (when they want to turn right towards Todmorden).
I find that usually it doesn't take any longer to go down Albert St. and turn right there. When they were working on the lights in New Rd. they blocked off the end of Crown St. to prevent people from turning into the main road at this very busy point. I'd like to see them make it a left turn only and use clearer signs to direct through traffic down Albert St.
Apart from that, I'm optimistic that it will be an improvement for drivers and/or pedestrians. I've never seen buses waiting in Albert St. for longer than it takes to load - maybe it just happens at certain times of day?
Posted by Adam B
Tuesday, June 27, 2006
Robert, you may be right about the design of the bus stop on Albert Street. As I said I really don't feel able to comment on its' suitability - only to give my thoughts on why it may have been done.
Regarding the development on Commercial Street. You're quite right you didn't mention the bus stop specifically; my mistake. I stand by my comments though. None of the development has obscured the view up Commercial Street. I had the same thoughts as you regarding the view of a pedestrian or driver of a large vehicle so I made sure not to check it on foot. I checked it out in a 12 year old Peugeot 106 - a car which you can hide behind a new mini (I know, I've lost it like that before!). Bearing this in mind I think my test was a fair one.
Posted by Rev Tony Buglass
Wednesday, June 28, 2006
Yes, Robert, I did assume you were talking about the furniture on the same side of the road as Bridge Gate. That's because the furniture on the other side (ramp, rails, etc) has a neligible effect on the view to the right. (It does block the view to the right for traffic emerging from Birchcliffe Road, but that view was awful anyway.) Any traffic coming around that bend, over the ridge, etc, is no less in view than it was before. The distance is much greater than the stopping distance for the speed limit, so anything coming into view as you emerge from Bridge Gate should be seen in plenty of time. Yes, things get more complicated if there is a bus at the bus stop, but that is a normal hazard of town driving.
For the record, my car is a Skoda. I've checked out the views on foot and in the saddle, and found no increased problems. The difficulties of driving in Hebden Bridge are just the difficulties of driving in Hebden Bridge, and changes in street furniture seem to me to have less effect than bad drivers and kamikaze pedestrians. But that's a universal truth...
Posted by Robert Collins
Wednesday, June 28, 2006
I guess we'll agree to differ on this one. It's a bit hard to go back in time and compare "before" with "after."
It's still the case though that the number of people making that right turn has increased. It is now the only route out of town for everyone using the car parks and on street parking in the Old Gate / Hangingroyd Lane areas.
Can anyone remember what was shown in the plans we were shown in the consultation exercise? I've a feeling they showed a quite complicated set of traffic lights round this general area.
Posted by Rev Tony Buglass
Friday, June 30, 2006
Having spent some time disagreeing with Robert on the subject of the new crossing near Bridge Gate, I'm now going to agree with him about the Albert Street bus stop. I've driven past it a few times in the last week, and pondered the design. I didn't want to go off half-cocked, so I've thought about it, and I think it's a problem.
It's set out some distance from the original pavement line, bringing the bus stop line into line with the outside of the car parking bays on either side. I suspect the idea was to stop bus drivers having to manoeuvre into a bay between parked cars, but the result is to have a bus pushed out into the traffic flow, rather than recessed away from it. OK, to minimalise that problem, it is set as far as possible from the junctions at either end, to give the best possible view around the bus. However, that means that pedestrians wishing to use the bus have to walk along Albert Street no matter where they start from. Perhaps the answer is that it isn't very far, but it is if you have difficulty walking.
Well, so far I think a properly shaped layby would have been more suitable. Perhaps I haven't really understood the issue - my degree and post-grad study is in theology, not traffic management and civil engineering. So I'd be grateful if someone who does understand would give me a clue. I think Robert would be, too.
Posted by John Thomas
Saturday, July 1, 2006
I agree with robert about the limited view at the junction of commercial street and the top of albert street. If you are coming from the down from the old town direction and wish to turn right, you can no longer use bridge gate and have to turn at the afforementioned junction.
The railings that have been erected at the bottom of birchcliffe road do block your view. it is in that all important moment when you are looking up commercial street before you attempt to turn right.
And as for the bus stop, it is just a non starter. whoever dreamt up this idea must be an idiot!!